It may be time! Engine troubles

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Aug 10th, '14, 07:30

As you all know I'm not the most mechanical of the bunch. Just about to pull into Sailors haven, bobs favorite spot yesterday and I get a huge clicking and banging noise. The motor still runs but doesn't sound good. I won't go into details because I am gonna have it looked at. If it's a reasonable fix no big deal.

I'm afraid it's not good news and if it is I will have to make some decisions. I'm not in a position to spend big money on a cummins reman repower. I could however swing a pair of new crusaders. I'm wondering what options you may all consider? I don't have the ability to reasonably asses a used deisel, I know an old cat can be found at a reasonable price but I'd need a decent yard that could help me make the right decisions.

Not being a canyon guy, mostly a nearshore fisherman and a family beach cruiser a pair of new crusaders doesn't sound bad to me, but I know many of you know better.

Hopefully I'm over concerned about an easy fix but I've got a feeling this time.

The 3 hour ride home in the dark at 5kts is another story!

John F. · Post by **John F.** » Aug 10th, '14, 08:08

What have you done to your motors recently (carbs, manifolds/risers, starters, altenators, ignition?)? If you've replaced a lot if bolt-ons, I'd look into fixing your bad motor, even if it means s long block. The $ in diesel repowers isn't just motors and gears. It's shafts, wheels, engine beds, new fuel system, new exhaust, new raw water, gauges, batteries and cables. I'm sure I'm forgetting stuff.

I don't think crusader is marinizing big blocks any more. I think they and merc are both using small blocks.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Aug 10th, '14, 10:15

Peter,
First thing is have motor looked at by a pro before you start writing checks in your mind for anything.

Sometimes small simple fixes can seem like a toasted motor. You have two motors in a harsh environment, stuff will go wrong, nature of the beast. Add some age to the equation and you have a higher potential for age and wear related items to give up the ghost.

Buy a pair of older diesels without a full overhaul and you in the same boat with the higher potential of things going wrong. Have a full overhaul and its lots of money added to the project...as John said motors are only a portion of the final bill...especially if you are not doing the lions share of the work. Cut corners on the install and expect more issues then you can shake a stick at. Go with older slower churning diesels and you have to beef up alot more to accept the weight and torque if the iron.

New gas motors are not always free of issues either...lots of little bugs may need to be worked out. Then you have the issue of dealing with injectors and computers...excellent when they are running...$$$ when something goes.

If you not pounding out the hours or going offshore...figure out what the advantage of diesel is....aside from the safety factor...which I think is overrated if you take the needed precautions.
Figure out how many hours you normally run boat each season and figure you"ll use half as much fuel...how many seasons till you break even on a 40, 50 or 60k install. It's alot of hours...many seasons when i ran my numbers.

Jus' saying relax...take a deep breathe and see what the mechanic thinks.

Weigh your options when you get all the information.

Just my unrequested .02

Carl

captbone · Post by **captbone** » Aug 10th, '14, 11:57

Sorry to hear about your trouble Peter.

That stink especially with a lot of the summer still left. My advice would be to pull the engine and have it rebuilt or find a matching used twin. That would be the quickest and simplest fix to getting you back on the water.

The problem is that all new gasoline inboard engines (not reman) are required to meet 4 star emissions and thus must have catalytic converters/ O2 sensor and are very expensive. I would expect the estimate for new transmissions and gasoline engines installed to be around $50k. I would be very surprised (shocked) if you could get out the door for anything less than $40k for new gasoline engines (even small blocks).

That money can buy a crazy amount of boat as the used boat market is in the tank still.

Sorry to hear about your trouble.

Cheers,
JR

Michael · Post by **Michael** » Aug 10th, '14, 16:04

The clicking could be a rocker arm that has pulled the stud due to a sticky valve. I would pull rocker covers and start engine and observe the valves to see if they are all operating/not stuck. If this, a pretty easy fix.

Navatech · Post by **Navatech** » Aug 10th, '14, 16:09

I'm not implying anything... Not that you should get diesels, not that these diesels are good for you nor that these diesels are good for anybody...

Having said that, just saw this on another forum and thought it might interest somebody...

http://www.thehulltruth.com/parts-forum ... -sale.html

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » Aug 10th, '14, 17:59

What Carl said......
He is the voice of reason!
I was thinking that I would have to pull a motor and put new seals in a transmission due to red stuff all over the bilge. I was upset and not thinking clearly. Luckily, the faithful go me straightened out and the problem was a .50 cent washer and 5 minutes of labor.
We'll all be here to help you get through it.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Aug 11th, '14, 05:34

Thanks guys. I'm listening. Spent part of the day cleaning the oil out of the bilge. What a mess I had it squeeky clean. At this point I'm to frustrated to bother looking at what's wrong, just put in a call to the mechanic.

Boats been running great this year on limited use. I had shoulder surgery in the spring, so I didn't fish the spring. It's been good for the family trips over the summer, prime it up and they both were turning over beautifully and running like a top. I was just cleared for full use of my shoulder and was hoping to start putting my time in. A 3 hour ride home at 6kts with a 2 and 5 yr old getting home at 10:30pm isn't really what I want to be doing.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Aug 11th, '14, 05:54

Where did the oil come from? I know the engine...but where abouts on the engine?
How much was in the bilge?

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Aug 11th, '14, 06:10

I cant see where it's coming from but it's a lot like all of it. Also some black specs in the coolant but it doesn't seem oily. It seems well beyond my pay grade. I did check the fluids and looked around the bilge before shoving off. There was a Big Bang and then a rhythmic tick that gets faster with more RPMs. My oil pressure gauge didn't change or did the temp.

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » Aug 11th, '14, 06:54

Sounds like a broken connecting rod, which then punctured the block. If so, that'll be fatal.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Aug 11th, '14, 07:57

Mike,

While I can't guess at the details, my gut feeling was thats it is fatal too.

Pete

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Aug 11th, '14, 08:05

I wanted to comment on JR (Captbone's) post as well.

This boat is a keeper for me, I've fixed a lot of problems. A new boat is a new set of unknown problems. Being that the used market is in the tank I'd likely get very little for my boat, I'm happy with a good set of running gas motors, I'd love diesel but it's not a neccesity for me. The other side of the equation is if I was (which i'm not) willing to invest an additional 50k in the boat I'd have to consider a trade and if I did get 20k for my boat (a stretch) plus the 50k I'd likely expand my search beyond a 31ft Bertram. I don't want to do that at this point.

Bertramp · Post by **Bertramp** » Aug 11th, '14, 08:49

Pete ...
I just went down a similar road with my crusaders.
I would look into a block and having someone yank the old and install your peripherals on the new block.
Lease expensive way out and when needed do the same on the other side.
That swap can be done fairly quickly on a 31(engines are accessable) and you might find it to be the least painful alternative.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Aug 11th, '14, 09:21

Bertramp wrote:Pete ...
I just went down a similar road with my crusaders.
I would look into a block and having someone yank the old and install your peripherals on the new block.
Lease expensive way out and when needed do the same on the other side.
That swap can be done fairly quickly on a 31(engines are accessable) and you might find it to be the least painful alternative.

Peter my stomach soured when you responded earlier.

Bertramp hit the nail on the head in regards to what I would do if motor is toast...that or look for a deal on a pair of running takeouts.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Aug 11th, '14, 22:17

Peter

The diesel route is too involved and costly right now. You can get a short or a long block and drop it in. I am not sure of all the new regs on gas engines, but new will cost you at a minimum figure $18 and engine. When I repowered to Diesel, we were looking at $12 a side in 2008. Tha twas before I fixed the 30 some odd years of what needed updating.

If updating is not needed go gas.

I have to go with Mike. Sounds like the block is toast. Can not imagine why you did not loose oil pressure.

Dug · Post by **Dug** » Aug 12th, '14, 07:21

Pete,

Sorry to hear about your challenge. I had the same when I had to bite the bullet. Honestly, diesel is not a requirement, especially if you don't run long hours or head to the canyon. Gas is a perfectly fine solution. Nothing wrong with gas engines.

I echo the sound advice others have offered here. Diagnose, and then proceed. A block might be the best, no problem.

Its only money... :(

When I blew my gas engine (it ate valves) I had to ante up, as I had a 31' floating deck at that point. I know you know the feeling.

Good luck my friend.

Dug

Craig Mac · Post by **Craig Mac** » Aug 12th, '14, 08:23

Peter,

If I remember correctly, you are running Chryslers? I imagine parts are getting harder to find, you maybe better off buying complete take-outs---Mercruisers or Crusaders.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Aug 12th, '14, 08:31

The engines are 1985 Mercruiser 454s

The msg is clear a new block if the problems are catasprophic. The only hang up is that my "good" motor has 4000+ hours. Finding the right RTO is also an option but finding the right one may be tough.

Pete

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » Aug 12th, '14, 09:04

Is it the port or the starboard engine? You'll need to find one with the proper rotation......

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Aug 12th, '14, 09:42

It's port motor giving me trouble.

mike ohlstein · Post by **mike ohlstein** » Aug 12th, '14, 09:56

Well that's good. That one is standard rotation, so finding things just got a little easier.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Aug 12th, '14, 10:26

Ask around...sometimes you can find a pair of good running take outs for little money. Its all about being at the right time at the right place.

We bought a spare pair of 440's from a customer that rebuilt them and when he was getting ready to install got a deal on a pair of diesels and put them in instead. He got strapped for cash on the install and sold the pair to us for a grand. We didn't drive a hard deal, we just didn't want them...fully dressed motors. At that price we just could not say no. Over the years me and my dad scavenged parts off them and now only a single long block remains.

A couple members here also put 350's in with some great performance numbers. They are good motors, been out for years, parts are easy to come by making them a relatively inexpensive choice. Saw one install...looked to be a pleasure to work on with soo much room to get around them.

Jus saying I'd keep those options open.

Pete, did your mechanic get a chance to take a look?

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Aug 12th, '14, 10:56

The mechanic hasn't been down to the boat yet, sometime this week, he generally does the house calls on Thursday. Unless it's urgent.

In any case I'm starting to peak around the web to see what is available in the RTO world. New a crusader small block is 12k for a carb - 15k for an MPI, I'm assuming those would drop in place with little work. Also some places like 800runsnew sell rebuilt motors but I think I read about bad experiences here? A set of RTO 496s would be great but I haven't seen any around. I saw a really nice pair of 210 cummins on ebay asking 10k per but there is a bigger cost there.

A new block is probably the best option but I'm keeping them all open.

STraenkle · Post by **STraenkle** » Aug 12th, '14, 12:20

Peter, hope you find a deal. I did a search and found rebuilds, complete motors for 5K Marine Carb 454 Crusader. Not sure what numbers you are seeing, but at 4,400 hours, do both.

I had the ethanol wipe out both my engines and I think I got lucky on a set of engines. $16,000 for both and ZF gears, running take outs from a searay diesel conversion with 250 hours. Got them at a boat show in PVD. They are way over kill for the boat, but the price and the MPG is 10% better and at cruise the computer says 33% throttle at 25 Knots. Hitting the rev limit at 66% throttle, need bigger wheels. I had 18 x 18 with the 454's with the 496 HO I bought 20's pitched them to 22. Still not enough, but worried about breaking stuff, so I am riding around in low gear. Good news is 2 engines at idle about 3 knots and 66% throttle bouncing rev limit almost 40, don't do that for long, but at 25 knots 2,900 RPM 33% throttle, 1.1 nautical MPG. It was a squeak to get them in there, but hell the boat accelerates like you would not believe. I love the G's more than the speed. Guess that's why I did 1/4 mile tracks.

I think mike could be right, a busted connecting rod makes a horrible noise, like shut it down now, but the oil pressure will hold, until the oil leaves the engine thru the hole. Are you sure the oil gauge works?

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Aug 12th, '14, 12:55

Does anybody have a receommendation for a reputable company that offers rebuilt motors? I've seen US engine and 800 runs new. Are these legitimate places to do business with? Should I look for someone local?

PaulJ · Post by **PaulJ** » Aug 12th, '14, 14:10

I used Michigan Motorz with great success. They sell rebuilt as well as new. They provide all bolt on parts as well. Shipped directly to my house where I built them up using some of the previous engine parts/transmissions, etc. http://www.michiganmotorz.com/
GM 350 (5.7L) 4bbl Quadrajet, Thunderbolt IV, FWC with TMI reman Velvet Drives.
Runs like a champ!

Paul J
1973 B28 - PALADIN,

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Aug 12th, '14, 14:56

Any thoughts on 210 RTOs. I remember years ago Walter saying his diesel conversion was easier with those motors.

http://m.ebay.com/itm/301272332261

John F. · Post by **John F.** » Aug 12th, '14, 15:07

Rebuilt motors- I'd also look to local machine and speed shops. Ask around. If you have one bad big block, you'll have to stick with another big block.

eBay cummins- youll need new fuel lines and filters, gears, props, probably shafts, and gauges. You may also need new exhausts and raw water thru hulls and hoses, and motor mounts. It adds up quickly

dcasey10 · Post by **dcasey10** » Aug 12th, '14, 16:51

http://longisland.craigslist.org/boa/4615274943.html

I found these. They are in nice shape. Actually interested myself in them but do not have any money after all the work I have done this year on my boat.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Aug 12th, '14, 18:44

That's not a bad deal if they're in good condition.

CHolgerson · Post by **CHolgerson** » Aug 13th, '14, 17:01

Hi Peter,

I think I can help you out. Give me a call when you get a chance. I have a set of RTO 454 crusaders available in Deer Park.
631 275-1365
Chris Holgerson

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Aug 13th, '14, 17:56

Thanks Chris. I'll give you a shout in the morning.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Aug 15th, '14, 05:50

Quick look from the mechanic. Doesn't seem catastrophic, something on top of the block. Gonna drive it over to him on Saturday. Rather than having him pull it apart at my dock.

Keeping my fingers crossed. Chris offered me a great option if things turn out to not be good so I'm feeling good either way minus the bank account hit.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Aug 15th, '14, 06:10

It's a boat...pocket takes a hit regardless.

Glad to hear it seems to be more of a glancing blow to the pocket.

...and good that you found out there are options other then no boat, new gassers or a diesel conversion.
Sometimes a short term solution is the best long term solution.

Crossing my fingers we hear more good news from your mechanic.
Carl

Dug · Post by **Dug** » Aug 15th, '14, 07:04

Pete,

would you want to consider finding a good set of take out 454's and having them gone through and rebuilt etc. over the winter and keeping them at the ready to switch out should you need to? It might be a good idea if the money is reasonable. That way you can deal with this at your own pace and have a back up plan in place for the inevitable...

Also, you could do it over the winter while the marine mechanics are a bit slower.

You might even go crazy and switch the engines while she is on the hard during the early spring. Its not that big a deal, especially when swapping for the same engines. Plug and play to a great degree... Alchemy has had engines in and out 3 times in the time I have owned her. Once to pull the original engines to paint them and put new gaskets on. Then another set with a similar idea to what I suggested, but they were 440 Chryslers not 454's and that is a whole other story too. Then those blew up and I finally bit the bullet and went with the Yanmars. Every situation is unique and different of course but...

Just a thought. And its always easy to spend someone elses money. ;)

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Aug 15th, '14, 08:45

Dug that is certainly a consideration. My long term issue is one of my shafts is slightly shorter then the other. The gears and engine beds are in an unknown condition, so I'm not all that certain that it's a great long term plan but a good intermediate one.

The better plan would be to find a decent pair of 210 cummins RTOs, pack them away in the garage and start saving my pennies for the conversion. That motor seems to be the best long term solution.

On another note Dug I have to clean up that jewelery you sent me home with, I got a good start but the rain put me behind and I didn't anticipate having the boat hauled so soon. What did you mention I should clean up the metal with?

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Aug 15th, '14, 09:16

Given the asking price for Walters boat, doing a diesel conversion on a gas boat is crazy right now.

Dug · Post by **Dug** » Aug 15th, '14, 09:41

Flitz!

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Aug 16th, '14, 06:26

Peter how did you make out . All i can tell you it getting close to november and oakdale yacth starts crushing boats . You would have to pay $ 650.00 dollar dumpster fee plus 4 hours shop time ($600.00) and you can take both 454 with gears . We also have four of these but i would not not sell to friend!! All 315 hp

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Aug 16th, '14, 07:00

Thanks Bob, Chris gave me a good option for 454s too. Those are yanmar 315s? Maintenance is that costly I guess. Running the boat over to islip at 5 MPH in an hour or so. Not sure they'll pull the motors apart until Monday.

Funny enough I had a vivid dream where I was hanging out with Walter and he gave me a full run down of his boat before selling it to me. I eventually drove off with him waving from the dock. I woke up in a sweat at 3:30 and haven't been back to sleep

John F. · Post by **John F.** » Aug 16th, '14, 07:32

Bruce wrote:Given the asking price for Walters boat, doing a diesel conversion on a gas boat is crazy right now.

Bruce is right. If diesel is in your future, the way to go is sell and buy, not repower. Its not just Walter's boat. Unfortunately, the used classic small sporty market has really come down. There are some nice 31s with Cummins and Yanmars on the market now for way less than a repower would cost, and they're still not selling. The prices of boats have gone way done, while the price of a repower has gone up. If it were me, I'd take a ride out to Walter's boat and take a long look. If you're OK with the cruise the 210s will give you (I would be), think hard. Crows Nest with Detroit 8.2s (yeah, I know) burns about 1/2 the fuel the Anna E. did with carb'd 454s. I really like that.

The other side of that is that if you're going to use the boat as a family boat, make sure your family is OK with the diesel smell and noise of mechanical diesels. Crows Nest is pretty good, but my wife only likes riding if she's up on the flybridge. The diesel smell in the cockpit gets to her. I need to insulate the boxes on Crows Nest, and put in puke cans and vents for the self-oiling Detroits, but she'll never be as quiet or odor free as my 454s were. Just a couple of thoughts.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Aug 16th, '14, 08:18

John,
Its that station wagon effect. Try opening the front hatch along with cockpit door.

Also it sounds stupid...but if you have those exhaust flappers...angle them a bit outward and toss a screw on the inboard sides of the flapper....not enough to restrict flow...just enough to direct it. If you catch it just right the exhaust at Howdy speed is directed far enough outward that it catchs the air going by instead of billowing in and around the transom. Need proof...run it on one of those cool damp days when you can watch the exhaust.
It was the one thing I did that made a noticeable difference to the ladies on our Howdy Night Cruises...But still a boat burning fossil fuel...so always going to get something.

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Aug 16th, '14, 08:46

Those are yanmar 315s? Maintenance is that costly I guess.

The one in the pic is off a stern drive. Being a stern drive, the hatches or boxes don't fit tight and drain well and usually the back joint is right over the engine exhaust outlet.

It was rare to have a stern drive diesel setup that didn't require regular engine cleansing. Gary Nicolas, Jack's son had a custom center console built with Yanmar powered stern drives. I did the initial computer setup and required factory maintenance but it was parked at dad's dock and the crew for the big Yacht did daily maintenance on it cause that back engine cover didn't seal well. Two years after buying it, those engines still looked brand new.

They look like crap cause that's the way they were treated.

John F. · Post by **John F.** » Aug 16th, '14, 10:51

Carl wrote:John,
Its that station wagon effect. Try opening the front hatch along with cockpit door.

Also it sounds stupid...but if you have those exhaust flappers...angle them a bit outward and toss a screw on the inboard sides of the flapper....not enough to restrict flow...just enough to direct it. If you catch it just right the exhaust at Howdy speed is directed far enough outward that it catchs the air going by instead of billowing in and around the transom. Need proof...run it on one of those cool damp days when you can watch the exhaust.
It was the one thing I did that made a noticeable difference to the ladies on our Howdy Night Cruises...But still a boat burning fossil fuel...so always going to get something.

Thanks. She doesn't have exhaust flapper. Am I better off without them, or should I add them and try it your way? She seemed (boat and wife) a little better when the swim platform was on. I just didn't like it and took it off.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Aug 16th, '14, 14:12

I have always liked the exhaust flappers...although I understand it dates the boats look. But at 50 years old, I think they fit the look...but id have on anyway...jus cause..well as I said i like em' and think it prevents a surge from going back up into motors...although prior owner did not have them on for the 12 years he owned it.

I had them on and saw the tip on "Ship Shape" TV... Yeah i know not a highly regarded show here...but I'll watch anything with water and a boat. Anyway it was a cheap tip so I gave it a try not expecting much and noticed a difference. Diesel is a bit stronger...so maybe not as helpful. Anything to get the exhaust away from the transom it clear air helps so it dont roll back into transom.

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Aug 16th, '14, 15:17

I would love diesels, I would love a sport fish model. I'm not sure either of those are best for the family. The boys are 2 and 5. And my wife can't spend a lot of time in the sun because she has lupus. That means most of our running time is spent with them sitting at the dinette. It also pretty much eliminates the option of glassing in the windows.

While I would love to consider myself a hardcore fisherman I'm much more concerned with the family enjoying a day on the water. Given my wife's recent new challenge I have to switch gears a bit. Putting on a swim platform this week so the boys can get in and out of the boat when we're on the hook.

I know that doesn't address the engines but I'm not sure what the best direction is so I'm more inclined to stay the course I don't think the motors are forcing my hand this time. But I need a better game plan because if it's not this problem it may be a different one soon.

Navatech · Post by **Navatech** » Aug 16th, '14, 15:38

PeterPalmieri wrote:if it's not this problem it may be a different one soon.

Hey, it's a boat... That's always going to be true... If it's not one problem it's going to be a different one soon...

CaptPatrick · Post by **CaptPatrick** » Aug 16th, '14, 17:45

My last 31 re-do, Pat Hancock's, was a sport fish model when I got it.

Forget everything else I did.... It left as a Flybridge.

You'd have 2 basic changes to make:

1. Add a bulkhead
2. Change the location of the head.

And... There's nothing stopping you from glassing in the front windows and dumping the lower station.

bob lico · Post by **bob lico** » Aug 16th, '14, 19:46

This is another one.ingested raw water thru decaying aluminum alloy sprinkler head.