First. thanks to Pat and sis Dana for their hospitality.
Already looking for the next trip out, only this time a little cooler. Possibly during deer poaching season.
Here's a compact Steyr review.
1. Steyr started in mid 1800's making guns. Then progressed to cars and developed major manufacturing acomplishments.
They then ended up in the 1900's splitting into 5 companies. two of which were the Daimler and Mercedes families.
In 1922 they developed the MONO block engine.
A mono block engine has no head. the valves are part of the main block assembly. The piston comes out the bottom of the cylinder.
The engine is cast from a high alloy steel, not cast iron.
The overhead camshaft assembly bolts to the top of the block and is belt driven. The engine is designed as an interference engine which means if the belt breaks and a piston hits a valve, the cam valve followers are designed to break rather than create valve damage. These followers are easy to replace and easy to get to.
At the factory school in Austria, they break a running engine belt to show what happens and a maximum of three followers break, sometimes less.
This engine was designed as a marine engine back in the early 80's and has not changed much. It is widely used in Europe and they currently have about 80% of the SOLACE market.
Solace is they safety boats that are carried on cruise, container, freighter ships and drilling rigs.
This is a pretty high acclaim to be ablt to meet the stringent requirements for this certification. One of which is starting and running the engines without dropping them in the water on a regular basis and the possibility of the boats tipping at severe angles or even rolling over.
This marine engine was demarinized and is being used in numerous trucks in Europe including Jeep. It is also the field replacement engine for military humvees.
They are currently going thru bids and testing for being the engine for the new designed military Humvee.
All of this additional testing and stringent military and solace certs are they same as what you get with the marine engine.
Since the engine is steel which radiates heat better and has no big blobs of casting to hold head bolts, it allows the closed cooling system to completely circulate around the cylinders. This design allows the engine to be run without an impeller up to 2000 rpm under load without overheating to get you home.
Along with a special coolant mixture, its design allows the closed cooling system to be extremely effecient.
The sea water side does not touch any metal except cupro-nickel until it reaches the exhaust system.
They are all high speed diesels which is why you don't have to ugrade running gear. In the 4300 rpm range. 90hp and up to 250 in 4 and 6 cylinder. They are working on a 300hp but rather than increase boost, fuel and the such as everyone else does, they chose to do a complete engine design at 300hp to reduce stress.
Out of all the engine they have produced, only two had major failures. None have needed rebuilding and some have as high as 22,000 hours on them.
Now the engine management system and fuel rack control are computer controlled but even if you have complete computer failure, you can still run the engines.
The injectors are two stage, the final stage developing 29,000 psi.
They are so effecient that Porsch uses the design in their high performance engines.
But they are set up like Detroits in that a common rack rod controls the fuel. This rack rod is servo controled but if the servo or electrical fails Steyr makes a device that will allow you to manualy control the rack but as we Americans are looking for quicker easier ways to do things, we discovered a medium size screw driver inserted in the oil fill cap at the proper angle will do the same thing much quicker.
There are no fuel lines like detroit though, The fuel system is run through the cam housing in ports.
Engine injectors are easy to service and you check for bad injectors about the same way as Detroit.
The fuel pump is electric and would have to be bypassed if the controller system fails which has never happened, but is easy to do.
Right now they are cable controlled engine but in the last part of this year they are going to have complete electronic controls.
The current gauge package is analog but along with the new can bus controls comming out will be a full electronic display.
The major difference with theirs is that it will be a touch screen and not joystick or button operation, will be water proof up to 2 meters below water for those rough days and will be able to be read with polarized sunglasses without the typical distortion of the color spectreme.
Warrantee is 1 year bumper to bumper, 1 more year on other stuff and 5 year on major parts.
Engine packages are Merc stern drive, inboard and jackshaft drive.
Unlike other diesels, you don't need the major stringer and running gear work because of the high speed which can save quite a bit.
Paint is electronically applied almost like a powder coat that will last.
The warehouse has engines and parts in stock.
Steyr has set up its own network and not depending on some one else as they did some years ago which failed when Stuart Stevenson went under who was the US dist.
I think that pretty much covers it. I probably forgot something so if you have a question, post it.
Steyr is really comitted to developing the US market and the market here is hungary for a diesel line in this HP with these outstanding features.
Current cost is a couple grand more than a comparable Yanmar, but reduce the install cost and they are overall cheaper. But that will all change with the price increase of the Yanmar BY series made by BMW.
I could be wrong, but early indications are the BY series are really not well tested.
I will find out all the skinny in two weeks at the annual Yanmar meeting and will let you all know the true story.
While I'm in business to make money, most all of you know if a product is crap or has problems I'll let you know. No amount of money would allow me to sleep knowing I fed you guys aload of crap.
I've never had a problem expressing my distain for a manufacturer.
Now for the repower offers.
I have lots of data on many different boats but we want to get some repowers going and will offer the following on a limited time basis.
1. reduced engine cost.
2. free labor install.
3. costs are for materials and yard.
I am mainly interested in boats in my area to use as demos and possibly one for the Lauderdale show.
I will do boats out of my area, but not on the same terms, but will reduce costs over standard installs. How much depends on type of boat.
To have free labor there must be no rot or damage to beds or stringers. If there are there will be labor to repair.
Also to keep the reality factor involved the engine will not be free and you will not be getting a 20k engine for 5k.
How much off will depend on engine model.
So email me what boat you have, the condition and current propulsion or if out what you had and weight of boat.
All drive systems are included including jet.
One more thing. If I was insane enough to buy another boat and it needed diesels in the hp range above, I would install Steyr over any diesel out there.
For what that's worth.
Steyr Review
Moderators: CaptPatrick, mike ohlstein, Bruce
steyr
could someone explain what high speed diesel means and how this relates to installation, running gear etc. i have a b28 stripped to the bare hull and havent decided which diesel to use, sounds like the horsepower to weight ratio is better than yanmar though.
thanks, matt
thanks, matt
Thoughts on High Speed Deisel:
Horsepower is a figure computed by multiplying the RPM times the torque. Old fashioned Diesels (Low speed Diesels) have huge torque and low RPM for a given horsepower. Compare that to an outboard motor which has enormous RPM and not so much torque to obtain the same horsepower.
The newer High Speed Diesels fall in between, sort of, (but not exactly), like a gas inboard motor. You see they turn higher RPM at lesser torque than their older brethren to make a given horsepower.
If you were to swap out a high performance inboard V8 gas motor for an old fashioned Diesel you would want to either gear the RPM up so that your prop turned at the same RPM as it used to, OR you would want to beef up your prop diameter and pitch so that you could obtain the same speeds with the prop and motor turning fewer RPM. Obviously if you did the latter you might need to make some other changes as well including stuff like shaft diameter and so forth, to match with the bigger wheels.
Now with high speed Diesels it is possible to keep nearly the same RPM's at the crankshaft, and thus it saves the problems of changing the other running gear.
There is more to high speed engines of any sort, though. It is a fact of thermodynamics that the slower you create your torque, the more efficient the motor. This is ONE of the reasons a low speed Diesel is more fuel efficient than a faster spinning gas engine, and that a gas inboard in turn is more efficient than an outboard, which in turn is more efficient than say a jet turbine.
Lower RPM means less wear per running hour too, and is a contributing factor to the legendary long engine life for Diesels.
BUT the low RPM was not the only reason Diesels are more efficient than gas. Diesels run at much higher compression ratios. The compression ratio has a lot to do with how efficient the motor can be. It also has to do with how heavy the combustion chamber, connecting rods, pistons, etc. have to be to withstand the pressures and forces developed.
Because of the greater forces and pressures it was common for a Diesel to outweigh a gas motor of similar horsepower considerably.....and in that weight change there is a trade off.
You see, you need to lift all that weight up to get your hull onto a plane.
You do that by pushing the water under the hull downward. A flat bottom boat does this pretty well, but a deep V, by its nature pushes a heck of a lot of water to the sides for every bit of water it pushes down. So adding a lot more weight can really effect your performance, requiring more horses to push it, meaning a bigger motor, which in turn is more weight....you get the idea. Bertrams are great hulls, but they are not built to be fuel efficient.
Now the volume of a hull goes up (roughly speaking) by the cube power of the length. So a little longer boat, say a 31 comparied to a 25, can handle a lot more weight. The difference in length is only around 20%, but the difference in total volume is more like 72% while the up-cost in empty hull weight is only on the order of 40% Those are just general estimates, not hard numbers, but you get the idea. There is a lot more margin to up the weight of the power package in a 31 over a 25 without encountering over-weight problems.
This is why you don't see Diesels in 13 foot Whalers. It is also why aircraft use light, inefficent, but powerful turbines, and cars do not. It also explains why some of the 25 crowd loves their outboard conversions so much. The get the weight out and the trade off is that the boat flies along using less HP, and so they get back some of the inefficency of the outboards by gaining in the lighter weight department, but that trade off wouldn't work very well in a 31.
Now consider the high speed Diesel. It is making its horsepower not only by higher cpompression ratios, but also by spinning faster, more like a gas motor. The torque developed isn't much greater than in a gasser, so the crank doesn't have to be as big. It is burning its fuel at a higher compression ratio, so although the forces in the combustion chamber are bigger, the chamber itself can be smaller, taking in a lesser chargge of fuel for each cycle, and thus lowering the total forces to something more in line with the gasser. That means the pistons and connecting rods can get lightened up a little, etc. So a high speed Diesel doesn't have to be all that much heavier than a gas motor. Especialy if it has a stronger steel block, and it is designed using modern stress analysis that wasn't possible 25 years ago to optimize strength and minimize weight. Suddenly the fast spinning Diesel is of comparable weight to the old gaser.
Meanwhile....In the past when good 110 octane gasoline was available we could run our gas motors safely at higher compression ratios than we can now. It wasn't out of the question to have a gas motor with a compression ration pushing 10:1 and still have it be very driveable. Nowadays, with 98 octane fuel being the norm for HighTest, the compression ratios and ignition timing of the gas motors has to be backed off to prevent pre-ignition or knock. Knock is bad stuff that can blow holes in your pistons, so you have to take it seriously. The net result is that brand new gasoline motors are not as powerful as they would have been only 10 years ago. The manufacturer has to back off the ignition and the compression ratio to make them withstand hard use, and each of these measures lowers their potential efficiency and HP.
The net result is that the high speed Diesel is really a nice compliment to the old low speed Diesel and a reasonable replacement for gas motors. It is a fit in RPM, HP, and weight when compared to gassers. BUT it most likely will not be as completely fuel efficient or as long lived as an old fashioned low speed Diesel.
If I had big boat with an old Diesel that needed re-power, I don't think I would necessarily seek out a High Speed Diesel. But for a smaller boat, or a hull where weigh is important, or for a gas to Diesel conversion it is a really nice alternative.
Also with the advances in engineering and design, the longevity problem is now really pretty minor. Motors of any sort no longer simply wear out and die of old age these days. It usually takes a good bit of neglect and/or operator error to kill 'em.
BTW I don't have any vested interest in selling, or not selling Steyr engines, but they sound pretty nice to me.
Horsepower is a figure computed by multiplying the RPM times the torque. Old fashioned Diesels (Low speed Diesels) have huge torque and low RPM for a given horsepower. Compare that to an outboard motor which has enormous RPM and not so much torque to obtain the same horsepower.
The newer High Speed Diesels fall in between, sort of, (but not exactly), like a gas inboard motor. You see they turn higher RPM at lesser torque than their older brethren to make a given horsepower.
If you were to swap out a high performance inboard V8 gas motor for an old fashioned Diesel you would want to either gear the RPM up so that your prop turned at the same RPM as it used to, OR you would want to beef up your prop diameter and pitch so that you could obtain the same speeds with the prop and motor turning fewer RPM. Obviously if you did the latter you might need to make some other changes as well including stuff like shaft diameter and so forth, to match with the bigger wheels.
Now with high speed Diesels it is possible to keep nearly the same RPM's at the crankshaft, and thus it saves the problems of changing the other running gear.
There is more to high speed engines of any sort, though. It is a fact of thermodynamics that the slower you create your torque, the more efficient the motor. This is ONE of the reasons a low speed Diesel is more fuel efficient than a faster spinning gas engine, and that a gas inboard in turn is more efficient than an outboard, which in turn is more efficient than say a jet turbine.
Lower RPM means less wear per running hour too, and is a contributing factor to the legendary long engine life for Diesels.
BUT the low RPM was not the only reason Diesels are more efficient than gas. Diesels run at much higher compression ratios. The compression ratio has a lot to do with how efficient the motor can be. It also has to do with how heavy the combustion chamber, connecting rods, pistons, etc. have to be to withstand the pressures and forces developed.
Because of the greater forces and pressures it was common for a Diesel to outweigh a gas motor of similar horsepower considerably.....and in that weight change there is a trade off.
You see, you need to lift all that weight up to get your hull onto a plane.
You do that by pushing the water under the hull downward. A flat bottom boat does this pretty well, but a deep V, by its nature pushes a heck of a lot of water to the sides for every bit of water it pushes down. So adding a lot more weight can really effect your performance, requiring more horses to push it, meaning a bigger motor, which in turn is more weight....you get the idea. Bertrams are great hulls, but they are not built to be fuel efficient.
Now the volume of a hull goes up (roughly speaking) by the cube power of the length. So a little longer boat, say a 31 comparied to a 25, can handle a lot more weight. The difference in length is only around 20%, but the difference in total volume is more like 72% while the up-cost in empty hull weight is only on the order of 40% Those are just general estimates, not hard numbers, but you get the idea. There is a lot more margin to up the weight of the power package in a 31 over a 25 without encountering over-weight problems.
This is why you don't see Diesels in 13 foot Whalers. It is also why aircraft use light, inefficent, but powerful turbines, and cars do not. It also explains why some of the 25 crowd loves their outboard conversions so much. The get the weight out and the trade off is that the boat flies along using less HP, and so they get back some of the inefficency of the outboards by gaining in the lighter weight department, but that trade off wouldn't work very well in a 31.
Now consider the high speed Diesel. It is making its horsepower not only by higher cpompression ratios, but also by spinning faster, more like a gas motor. The torque developed isn't much greater than in a gasser, so the crank doesn't have to be as big. It is burning its fuel at a higher compression ratio, so although the forces in the combustion chamber are bigger, the chamber itself can be smaller, taking in a lesser chargge of fuel for each cycle, and thus lowering the total forces to something more in line with the gasser. That means the pistons and connecting rods can get lightened up a little, etc. So a high speed Diesel doesn't have to be all that much heavier than a gas motor. Especialy if it has a stronger steel block, and it is designed using modern stress analysis that wasn't possible 25 years ago to optimize strength and minimize weight. Suddenly the fast spinning Diesel is of comparable weight to the old gaser.
Meanwhile....In the past when good 110 octane gasoline was available we could run our gas motors safely at higher compression ratios than we can now. It wasn't out of the question to have a gas motor with a compression ration pushing 10:1 and still have it be very driveable. Nowadays, with 98 octane fuel being the norm for HighTest, the compression ratios and ignition timing of the gas motors has to be backed off to prevent pre-ignition or knock. Knock is bad stuff that can blow holes in your pistons, so you have to take it seriously. The net result is that brand new gasoline motors are not as powerful as they would have been only 10 years ago. The manufacturer has to back off the ignition and the compression ratio to make them withstand hard use, and each of these measures lowers their potential efficiency and HP.
The net result is that the high speed Diesel is really a nice compliment to the old low speed Diesel and a reasonable replacement for gas motors. It is a fit in RPM, HP, and weight when compared to gassers. BUT it most likely will not be as completely fuel efficient or as long lived as an old fashioned low speed Diesel.
If I had big boat with an old Diesel that needed re-power, I don't think I would necessarily seek out a High Speed Diesel. But for a smaller boat, or a hull where weigh is important, or for a gas to Diesel conversion it is a really nice alternative.
Also with the advances in engineering and design, the longevity problem is now really pretty minor. Motors of any sort no longer simply wear out and die of old age these days. It usually takes a good bit of neglect and/or operator error to kill 'em.
BTW I don't have any vested interest in selling, or not selling Steyr engines, but they sound pretty nice to me.
Rawleigh,
Yes you can use the old running gear due to the higher rpm/torque range that Peter touched on.
Thus the lower installation costs.
Velvet drives have been reused in a situation where the the engine was jack shafted.
Otherwise the angle needed to mate to the shaft would place the diesel on too much of an aft angle.
That is why down angle gears are used. Most diesels are limited to 5 degrees max on angle.
But the 72 series inline gears will hold up.
Yes you can use the old running gear due to the higher rpm/torque range that Peter touched on.
Thus the lower installation costs.
Velvet drives have been reused in a situation where the the engine was jack shafted.
Otherwise the angle needed to mate to the shaft would place the diesel on too much of an aft angle.
That is why down angle gears are used. Most diesels are limited to 5 degrees max on angle.
But the 72 series inline gears will hold up.
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Steyr Conversion
Bruce
I would assume that like the Yanmars and Cummins at 300hp, you would need to up the shaft diamater, or are the Steyr's differant for some reason? Tony Meola
I would assume that like the Yanmars and Cummins at 300hp, you would need to up the shaft diamater, or are the Steyr's differant for some reason? Tony Meola
Peter...
Thanks for your post above.. While being an engineer I understood the basics of the gas vs diesel comparisons and issues.. but stating them clearly so the common boatowner such as myself can understand them is difficult. You managed in one place to very efficiently and clearly make an excellent presentation of the major factors to consider when repowering. Great job! Thank you!
Thanks for your post above.. While being an engineer I understood the basics of the gas vs diesel comparisons and issues.. but stating them clearly so the common boatowner such as myself can understand them is difficult. You managed in one place to very efficiently and clearly make an excellent presentation of the major factors to consider when repowering. Great job! Thank you!
Tony,
No shaft upgrade in most cases.
Lower speed diesels require larger size props thus the heavier shafts to handle the twisting torque from the higher pitch prop blades.
Everyone,
I got all your emails and am going thru them to see what looks good.
I did forget one thing.
They have a flywheel mounted, water cooled 5kw dc output generator option that adds about two inches to the length.
This would allow those who do not want a genset, to use inverters without having to add highoutput altenators.
Put one on a twin install would give 10kw of 12vdc power.
Somewhere in the 3800.00 range as a new option.
They are not adaptable to other engines so they say.
No shaft upgrade in most cases.
Lower speed diesels require larger size props thus the heavier shafts to handle the twisting torque from the higher pitch prop blades.
Everyone,
I got all your emails and am going thru them to see what looks good.
I did forget one thing.
They have a flywheel mounted, water cooled 5kw dc output generator option that adds about two inches to the length.
This would allow those who do not want a genset, to use inverters without having to add highoutput altenators.
Put one on a twin install would give 10kw of 12vdc power.
Somewhere in the 3800.00 range as a new option.
They are not adaptable to other engines so they say.
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