I found information on the huge increase in deposit formation when Ethanol is added to fuel unles the amount of "detergent" is increased by 50%. (I'm sure you guys have read the message.)
Interestingly, the articles mention that some particular engines are more susceptible to this sort of fouling than others. And additionally the type of use the engine is getting effects the deposits as well. Short trips with many heat soaks after shutdown are worse than long extended runs. So I suppose this tells us that the deposits worsen somehow after the motor is actually stopped. I'm still scratching my head on that one.
In a thread on the old board Harv reprted going into his third season with no troubles, while Carl reported that he has had nothing but troubles, and has decided to change out his tank.
My question for each of you, if you don't mind my asking, is how do each of you use your boats? Long runs, or short trips with multiple shut-downs?
Also I know that Carl is running a '62 Express with 440's and he also reported his Dad had a Hattie of same year and motors with the same troubles. Carl also reported that he had one of the tanks that looks like raw glass on the inside, no gel-coat like surface.
What engines do you run, Harv? Do you know if the inside of your tank looks like it is gel-coated, or is it raw glass?
Have you been putting any additives into your gas like Mystery oil or Techron?
Thanks in advance for any replies.
Question for Harv and Carl
Moderators: CaptPatrick, mike ohlstein, Bruce
Peter,
I'm not one of the people you addressed your question to but I hope that perhaps I can help.
I am in the process of replacing the glass tank in my '86 Bertram with aluminum. I was planning on taking a "wait and see" approach to the ethanol / fiberglass tank issue since there were so many conflicting pieces of information floating around. Unfortunately, my starboard engine (Crusader 5.7L EFI) which was installed new in Sept 04 and with less than 200 hours on it starting to give me overheat problems which were not resolved by simply replacing the water pump impeller and thermostat. A trip to the authorized Crusader mechanic and a subsequent engine break down revealed the culprit: the engine is loaded with the black goo associated with the fiberglass resins from the tank. This led to valve damage. Since the engines are under warranty, the company that carries the policy for Crusader in years 2 & 3 sent down an adjuster who basically laughed when he saw the engine and denied any warranty compensation due to the effects of the fiberglass resin. That has left me with a hefty engine repair bill (>$3K) plus the cost of the tank replacement.
From the research I have done on this topic, I have reached a few conclusions. First, unless your glass tank was made with vinylester resins and you can guaranty that it was, your tank WILL get compromised by the ethanol in our fuel. Some tanks will take longer than others but eventually they will all go. Second, it is not worth the financial risk of playing "wait & see" when you see the cost of the engine repair. Get the tank out now. It will be cheaper in the long run.
Although my port engine has not shown any symptoms yet, I am sure that there is accumulation of resin in it too. My plan is to run Startron in virtually every tank of gas I use from this point on. Part of the reason is to help clean out the resin from the port side but more importantly, the Startron has been shown to delay the phase separation that occurs with E10 fuel when as little as 0.5% water is added to it. I can just image the damage that will occur if the boat sits a while, condensation accumulates and water/ethanol separate out and sit on the bottom of the tank. The fuel pick up will pull this pure water/ethanol mix right into the engine wreaking more havoc and necessitating more expensive repairs. If the Startron helps to prevent this, it is well worth the money.
No matter how you look at it, it is not a pretty picture for us "gassers". I hope my experience can help you with your decisions on how to proceed.
Ken
Babylon, NY
I'm not one of the people you addressed your question to but I hope that perhaps I can help.
I am in the process of replacing the glass tank in my '86 Bertram with aluminum. I was planning on taking a "wait and see" approach to the ethanol / fiberglass tank issue since there were so many conflicting pieces of information floating around. Unfortunately, my starboard engine (Crusader 5.7L EFI) which was installed new in Sept 04 and with less than 200 hours on it starting to give me overheat problems which were not resolved by simply replacing the water pump impeller and thermostat. A trip to the authorized Crusader mechanic and a subsequent engine break down revealed the culprit: the engine is loaded with the black goo associated with the fiberglass resins from the tank. This led to valve damage. Since the engines are under warranty, the company that carries the policy for Crusader in years 2 & 3 sent down an adjuster who basically laughed when he saw the engine and denied any warranty compensation due to the effects of the fiberglass resin. That has left me with a hefty engine repair bill (>$3K) plus the cost of the tank replacement.
From the research I have done on this topic, I have reached a few conclusions. First, unless your glass tank was made with vinylester resins and you can guaranty that it was, your tank WILL get compromised by the ethanol in our fuel. Some tanks will take longer than others but eventually they will all go. Second, it is not worth the financial risk of playing "wait & see" when you see the cost of the engine repair. Get the tank out now. It will be cheaper in the long run.
Although my port engine has not shown any symptoms yet, I am sure that there is accumulation of resin in it too. My plan is to run Startron in virtually every tank of gas I use from this point on. Part of the reason is to help clean out the resin from the port side but more importantly, the Startron has been shown to delay the phase separation that occurs with E10 fuel when as little as 0.5% water is added to it. I can just image the damage that will occur if the boat sits a while, condensation accumulates and water/ethanol separate out and sit on the bottom of the tank. The fuel pick up will pull this pure water/ethanol mix right into the engine wreaking more havoc and necessitating more expensive repairs. If the Startron helps to prevent this, it is well worth the money.
No matter how you look at it, it is not a pretty picture for us "gassers". I hope my experience can help you with your decisions on how to proceed.
Ken
Babylon, NY
Last edited by kscheben on Jul 7th, '06, 13:33, edited 1 time in total.
Peter,
Glad to help in any way.
My boat was used to pretty much everything til the goo set in. Lots of Fluking with the family, trawling for Bass, short 1-5 mile runs. Weekends trips to the inshore grounds for Shark and Lil tuna's- 20-30mile runs. Also the Beach runs are 10 miles each way and the same for Dock and Dines.
My opinion as to what is happening when engine sits for long periods. The goo which is first Tar like, sets of on the valve seats and locks them shut, just like glue. When you go to start the engine the valve won't move and a rod bends. I found Carb cleaner/Powerfoam helped prevent this, just fog engine prior to shutdown.
Running, I think the stuff on the valve stems caused the problems. Kind of made them sluggish and caused loss of power and bent Push rods. Here is where I found Techron worked best, above everthing else I tried. I tried Gumout, Powerfoam, STP Fuel Additive, Marvel Mystery Oil (didn't work but made exhaust smell good.) and Startron enzyme stuff.
Tank is changed to Alum and I seem to be running now, although only making short trips as I am leary to run further.
Think I got it all answered, other then Dads Hateras is a 1966. Anything else let me know.
Carl
Glad to help in any way.
My boat was used to pretty much everything til the goo set in. Lots of Fluking with the family, trawling for Bass, short 1-5 mile runs. Weekends trips to the inshore grounds for Shark and Lil tuna's- 20-30mile runs. Also the Beach runs are 10 miles each way and the same for Dock and Dines.
My opinion as to what is happening when engine sits for long periods. The goo which is first Tar like, sets of on the valve seats and locks them shut, just like glue. When you go to start the engine the valve won't move and a rod bends. I found Carb cleaner/Powerfoam helped prevent this, just fog engine prior to shutdown.
Running, I think the stuff on the valve stems caused the problems. Kind of made them sluggish and caused loss of power and bent Push rods. Here is where I found Techron worked best, above everthing else I tried. I tried Gumout, Powerfoam, STP Fuel Additive, Marvel Mystery Oil (didn't work but made exhaust smell good.) and Startron enzyme stuff.
Tank is changed to Alum and I seem to be running now, although only making short trips as I am leary to run further.
Think I got it all answered, other then Dads Hateras is a 1966. Anything else let me know.
Carl
Thanks for the replies.
I don't advocate that anyone play Russian roulette with their engines or their safety. I don't see how it can hurt to change out from the glass tanks, and it seems likely that it could help.
I am just very curious by nature, and I'd like to get to a point where we all know the bottom line on the tank issue for sure.
Most of our Bertrams will be around for a long while. 10, maybe 15 years from now it would be nice if a fella looking at a Bertram could say...Yeah, that is one of the tanks that is OK.
Also it would be nice to know if changing the tank actually does solve the problem. And know what new problems it introduces.
The galvanic corrosion thing for aluminum tanks is a real kicker. Dissimilar metals in an E-10 fuel tank will corrode by the galvanic process because of the E-10's ability to support an electrical current. And you can't stick a zinc in there either.
Peter
I don't advocate that anyone play Russian roulette with their engines or their safety. I don't see how it can hurt to change out from the glass tanks, and it seems likely that it could help.
I am just very curious by nature, and I'd like to get to a point where we all know the bottom line on the tank issue for sure.
Most of our Bertrams will be around for a long while. 10, maybe 15 years from now it would be nice if a fella looking at a Bertram could say...Yeah, that is one of the tanks that is OK.
Also it would be nice to know if changing the tank actually does solve the problem. And know what new problems it introduces.
The galvanic corrosion thing for aluminum tanks is a real kicker. Dissimilar metals in an E-10 fuel tank will corrode by the galvanic process because of the E-10's ability to support an electrical current. And you can't stick a zinc in there either.
Peter
Peter,
I run 454 Mercs in my boat. I am uncertain as to the nature of the inside of the tank as I have not looked in there yet. My boat sat basically since lat September until 2 weeks ago. Fuel filters were checked with no water observed at all on either side and only some slight varnish sediment in the very bottom of the filters. Engines started right up and run smooth at idle. Have not been able to get out for a sea trial yet this year. I am considering a new all natural bio friendly product called Ethos....http://www.ethosnw.com/. I've been told it is so bio-friendly, you could drink it right out of the bottle. I plan to add some of this to the tank and a little to the crankcase as well. I am also considering adding Startron as well.
I run 454 Mercs in my boat. I am uncertain as to the nature of the inside of the tank as I have not looked in there yet. My boat sat basically since lat September until 2 weeks ago. Fuel filters were checked with no water observed at all on either side and only some slight varnish sediment in the very bottom of the filters. Engines started right up and run smooth at idle. Have not been able to get out for a sea trial yet this year. I am considering a new all natural bio friendly product called Ethos....http://www.ethosnw.com/. I've been told it is so bio-friendly, you could drink it right out of the bottle. I plan to add some of this to the tank and a little to the crankcase as well. I am also considering adding Startron as well.
Harv
-
Skipper Dick
- Senior Member
- Posts: 330
- Joined: Jun 29th, '06, 08:22
- Location: Cape Coral, Florida
- Contact:
Ethos FR
Harv,
About 2 months ago, I got involved with this MLM that markets Ethos FR and ordered the bare minimum because I saw it as an opportunity to possibly decrease my fuel consumption in my two Merruiser Horizons. It took forever to get the 4 bottles of product, but when it came, we noticed that it was a different color than my friend's who is upline from me. The company said it was because they are now using a more refined mineral oil. But some former members of the company who have started their own web site to warn people of the 4E company (they said) are crying SCAM and that the product will not do what it was intended to do and that they diluted their dwindling supply to be able to ship more out.
Well, having an open mind, I decided to check with people who I know have used it and no one I know has had any possitive results with it yet. Now 4E corp. says you have to use 5-6 tanks full before you see results. This morning I got an email from someone who claims to be a former FBI agent and he said that he has been hired to investigate the company and has found that the 4E corp. is making claims about the product that is untrue and that they do not have the patent rights and on and on.
Quite honestly, I don't know what to think now and I have 4 quarts of this stuff that I wouldn't put in my lawn mower much less in my B28 fuel tank. One of my friends got so pissed about all the crap going around about this stuff that he went down and had an oil change and stopped using it.
I guess I am taking a wait and see attitude, but when you google the web, you find all sorts of negative stuff about the people running the 4E corp. I even emailed the corp. to see if there has been any tests on the effects of Ethos on fuel tanks, hoses and seals, but never got a reply back.
So, if you use it, let us know your thoughts on it. I'm just a little leery right now, but I may put some in my 2002 Avalange just to satisfy my own curiosity. I wouldn't be surpirsed if the upper echalon of 4E doesn't get indicted in California.
Dick
About 2 months ago, I got involved with this MLM that markets Ethos FR and ordered the bare minimum because I saw it as an opportunity to possibly decrease my fuel consumption in my two Merruiser Horizons. It took forever to get the 4 bottles of product, but when it came, we noticed that it was a different color than my friend's who is upline from me. The company said it was because they are now using a more refined mineral oil. But some former members of the company who have started their own web site to warn people of the 4E company (they said) are crying SCAM and that the product will not do what it was intended to do and that they diluted their dwindling supply to be able to ship more out.
Well, having an open mind, I decided to check with people who I know have used it and no one I know has had any possitive results with it yet. Now 4E corp. says you have to use 5-6 tanks full before you see results. This morning I got an email from someone who claims to be a former FBI agent and he said that he has been hired to investigate the company and has found that the 4E corp. is making claims about the product that is untrue and that they do not have the patent rights and on and on.
Quite honestly, I don't know what to think now and I have 4 quarts of this stuff that I wouldn't put in my lawn mower much less in my B28 fuel tank. One of my friends got so pissed about all the crap going around about this stuff that he went down and had an oil change and stopped using it.
I guess I am taking a wait and see attitude, but when you google the web, you find all sorts of negative stuff about the people running the 4E corp. I even emailed the corp. to see if there has been any tests on the effects of Ethos on fuel tanks, hoses and seals, but never got a reply back.
So, if you use it, let us know your thoughts on it. I'm just a little leery right now, but I may put some in my 2002 Avalange just to satisfy my own curiosity. I wouldn't be surpirsed if the upper echalon of 4E doesn't get indicted in California.
Dick
1983 Bertram 28 FBC w/300 Merc Horizon
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mike ohlstein
- Site Admin
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- Contact:
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In Memory Walter K
- Senior Member
- Posts: 2912
- Joined: Jun 30th, '06, 21:25
- Location: East Hampton LI, NY
- Contact:
Harv- I know how you feel, but at this point, you have so much invested in your boat that the long-term risk is not worth it. I have a friend in Montauk who has had his gasser B-31 up for sale for a year now. No one will touch it because of the fiberglass tank/ethanol situation. Think a new tank or diesel conversion is the only real solution. I'm going through the same crap on my B-20. Ugh! Walter
Re: Ethos FR
[quote=Skipperdick]
Harv,
About 2 months ago, I got involved with this MLM that markets Ethos FR and ordered the bare minimum because I saw it as an opportunity to possibly decrease my fuel consumption in my two Merruiser Horizons. It took forever to get the 4 bottles of product, but when it came, we noticed that it was a different color than my friend's who is upline from me. The company said it was because they are now using a more refined mineral oil. But some former members of the company who have started their own web site to warn people of the 4E company (they said) are crying SCAM and that the product will not do what it was intended to do and that they diluted their dwindling supply to be able to ship more out.
Well, having an open mind, I decided to check with people who I know have used it and no one I know has had any possitive results with it yet. Now 4E corp. says you have to use 5-6 tanks full before you see results. This morning I got an email from someone who claims to be a former FBI agent and he said that he has been hired to investigate the company and has found that the 4E corp. is making claims about the product that is untrue and that they do not have the patent rights and on and on.
Quite honestly, I don't know what to think now and I have 4 quarts of this stuff that I wouldn't put in my lawn mower much less in my B28 fuel tank. One of my friends got so pissed about all the crap going around about this stuff that he went down and had an oil change and stopped using it.
I guess I am taking a wait and see attitude, but when you google the web, you find all sorts of negative stuff about the people running the 4E corp. I even emailed the corp. to see if there has been any tests on the effects of Ethos on fuel tanks, hoses and seals, but never got a reply back.
So, if you use it, let us know your thoughts on it. I'm just a little leery right now, but I may put some in my 2002 Avalange just to satisfy my own curiosity. I wouldn't be surpirsed if the upper echalon of 4E doesn't get indicted in California.
Dick [/quote]
Dick,
the yard owner/mechanic of my yard told me he had put a bottle in his tank for his own personal use. He said that in the beginning of the day , the outboard was spinning to 4600rpm. By the end of the day, he said he was getting 5200rpm and the motor was running like a raging bull. He also told me he is usually skeptical about additives and likes to tear down the engine both before and after to get a better idea of the results. Now I don't know whether to beleive him totallhy or not as he has told me the regional guy wanted to make him a distributer. Wondering also if he was just saying this to get me to buy some. Beginning to look like I will go with the Startron or Techron instead.
Harv,
About 2 months ago, I got involved with this MLM that markets Ethos FR and ordered the bare minimum because I saw it as an opportunity to possibly decrease my fuel consumption in my two Merruiser Horizons. It took forever to get the 4 bottles of product, but when it came, we noticed that it was a different color than my friend's who is upline from me. The company said it was because they are now using a more refined mineral oil. But some former members of the company who have started their own web site to warn people of the 4E company (they said) are crying SCAM and that the product will not do what it was intended to do and that they diluted their dwindling supply to be able to ship more out.
Well, having an open mind, I decided to check with people who I know have used it and no one I know has had any possitive results with it yet. Now 4E corp. says you have to use 5-6 tanks full before you see results. This morning I got an email from someone who claims to be a former FBI agent and he said that he has been hired to investigate the company and has found that the 4E corp. is making claims about the product that is untrue and that they do not have the patent rights and on and on.
Quite honestly, I don't know what to think now and I have 4 quarts of this stuff that I wouldn't put in my lawn mower much less in my B28 fuel tank. One of my friends got so pissed about all the crap going around about this stuff that he went down and had an oil change and stopped using it.
I guess I am taking a wait and see attitude, but when you google the web, you find all sorts of negative stuff about the people running the 4E corp. I even emailed the corp. to see if there has been any tests on the effects of Ethos on fuel tanks, hoses and seals, but never got a reply back.
So, if you use it, let us know your thoughts on it. I'm just a little leery right now, but I may put some in my 2002 Avalange just to satisfy my own curiosity. I wouldn't be surpirsed if the upper echalon of 4E doesn't get indicted in California.
Dick [/quote]
Dick,
the yard owner/mechanic of my yard told me he had put a bottle in his tank for his own personal use. He said that in the beginning of the day , the outboard was spinning to 4600rpm. By the end of the day, he said he was getting 5200rpm and the motor was running like a raging bull. He also told me he is usually skeptical about additives and likes to tear down the engine both before and after to get a better idea of the results. Now I don't know whether to beleive him totallhy or not as he has told me the regional guy wanted to make him a distributer. Wondering also if he was just saying this to get me to buy some. Beginning to look like I will go with the Startron or Techron instead.
Last edited by Harv on Jul 8th, '06, 16:25, edited 1 time in total.
Harv
Walt,Harv- I know how you feel, but at this point, you have so much invested in your boat that the long-term risk is not worth it. I have a friend in Montauk who has had his gasser B-31 up for sale for a year now. No one will touch it because of the fiberglass tank/ethanol situation. Think a new tank or diesel conversion is the only real solution. I'm going through the same crap on my B-20. Ugh! Walter
in my present condition, I will just have to try to keep my eyes peeled on the fuel system. If the engines go, they go, and I will sit high and dry until my accident settlement comes through. Then I will make the switch to diesel and get back to the business of enjoying my boat again. I can't see spending money to fix gassers when diesels are already thought about for the future.
Harv
I can say changing the tank from Glass to Alum has me running again.
Whether the tank will last 5-10 or 20 years, don't know, don't care. Just about every other boat runs alum tanks and so will I for several years, till either it rots out or something better comes along. If I go to sell boat, my selling point will be, its a Bertram and if you need to change out the tank, "Pull up these screws and remove deck then yank tank and swap it out." You don't need to pull engines or cut holes to remove tank as you may have to do in other brands.
Question, if so much information shows the tank "will fail" do to the ethanol, why put yourself thru the misery of dealing with it. Change out the tank to alum now, and save the fiberglass for a diesel conversion down the road. Pops converted to diesel just as problem developed with the gassers, but was getting lots of tank debris for quite some time after the conversion. It would be ashame to ruin a good tank, a pair of engines and part of the season.
Just a thought.
Carl
Whether the tank will last 5-10 or 20 years, don't know, don't care. Just about every other boat runs alum tanks and so will I for several years, till either it rots out or something better comes along. If I go to sell boat, my selling point will be, its a Bertram and if you need to change out the tank, "Pull up these screws and remove deck then yank tank and swap it out." You don't need to pull engines or cut holes to remove tank as you may have to do in other brands.
Question, if so much information shows the tank "will fail" do to the ethanol, why put yourself thru the misery of dealing with it. Change out the tank to alum now, and save the fiberglass for a diesel conversion down the road. Pops converted to diesel just as problem developed with the gassers, but was getting lots of tank debris for quite some time after the conversion. It would be ashame to ruin a good tank, a pair of engines and part of the season.
Just a thought.
Carl
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