Just a reminder that R-22, which is in marine and home AC units, except the newer HE 410a units, is being phased out. Jan 1, the ban on import and manufacture of 22 except for serviceing needs is in a few weeks.
While a total ban is not until 2020, the price of R22 has risen dramaticaly and presently sits at about 200 bucks wholesale for a 30lb can.
Retail I've seen r22 go for as much as 40 to 50 bucks a lb.
This Jan 1 ban is only going to raise the price more for your service needs.
Make sure you keep your units free from rust and corrosion to prevent leaks and if you have one make sure the service tech doesn't waste 22 finding it as it is going to be expensive even more in the upcomming years.
I remember when R22 was 20 bucks a 30lb can wholesale.
I doubt the ban will have anything to do with reducing ozone depletion and has more to do with sticking a fat hog in the ass for more money from developed nations.
Thanks again to the Al Gore types.
Your marine and home HVAC units
Moderators: CaptPatrick, mike ohlstein, Bruce
Bruce...
Thanks for the heads up!
I have what appears to be original A/C equipment on my 1983 B33. It works but not all that well, with all I am doing in my rebuilding project I have been delaying spending the $$ on it until I get a lot of oter stuff finished.. can the replacement for R-22 be used in old units, should I hurry and have the old unit serviced now, or should I forget about it and buy a new system in the next year or so?
Thanks for the heads up!
I have what appears to be original A/C equipment on my 1983 B33. It works but not all that well, with all I am doing in my rebuilding project I have been delaying spending the $$ on it until I get a lot of oter stuff finished.. can the replacement for R-22 be used in old units, should I hurry and have the old unit serviced now, or should I forget about it and buy a new system in the next year or so?
Frank B
1983 Bertram 33 FBC "Phoenix"
--------------
Trump lied! Washington DC isn't a swamp.. it is a cesspool!
1983 Bertram 33 FBC "Phoenix"
--------------
Trump lied! Washington DC isn't a swamp.. it is a cesspool!
The 410a will not work in existing 22 units. It is designed to use higher pressures and has been used for years in high efficiency units.
Your service tech will still be able to get 22, the price will just keep rising. After Jan 1 all new HVAC units sold will be the new gas.
Don't know what you mean by all that well. A simple check without any gauges is go to the air handler(part that gets cold) and make sure the half moon shape copper tubes on the sides are sweating from the top to the bottom. Sweating at the bottom but not the top indicates a possible low charge.
Next check the suction line(larger of the two lines) at the service valve in a split unit, it should be sweating. On a self contained(or all in one unit) find the suction line charge port(its either marked with a tag, or is painted blue or is the larger of the two lines) and it should be sweating also.
If the suction lines are not sweating, carefully put your hand on the water cooled condensing coil in the middle of the coil not wher the small line goes in and out. You should be able to keep your hand on it. If not the col is dirty from growth and will need to be flushed with a mild acid solution.
This situation results in a higher than normal head pressure and reduces the working capacity of the unit. It would be like shrubs growing around your home unit and the fan not being able to circulate air and cool it down.
Clean air filters and evaporator coils are also essential for efficiency.
If all these appear to be normal a gauge set is then required to check actual pressures.
I find the biggest issue with marine units is dirty or missing filters and dirty condensor coils.
Don't know yet what effect in price that will be on marine units but talk to your local service reps.
Freon that hasn't leaked out of a unit by law has to be recovered and sent to a recycler which they are stockpiling 22 for the complete phase out in 2020 at which point when the recycled stuff runs out, thats it.
In tens years a good portion of current R22 units will have been replaced anyways.
Your service tech will still be able to get 22, the price will just keep rising. After Jan 1 all new HVAC units sold will be the new gas.
Don't know what you mean by all that well. A simple check without any gauges is go to the air handler(part that gets cold) and make sure the half moon shape copper tubes on the sides are sweating from the top to the bottom. Sweating at the bottom but not the top indicates a possible low charge.
Next check the suction line(larger of the two lines) at the service valve in a split unit, it should be sweating. On a self contained(or all in one unit) find the suction line charge port(its either marked with a tag, or is painted blue or is the larger of the two lines) and it should be sweating also.
If the suction lines are not sweating, carefully put your hand on the water cooled condensing coil in the middle of the coil not wher the small line goes in and out. You should be able to keep your hand on it. If not the col is dirty from growth and will need to be flushed with a mild acid solution.
This situation results in a higher than normal head pressure and reduces the working capacity of the unit. It would be like shrubs growing around your home unit and the fan not being able to circulate air and cool it down.
Clean air filters and evaporator coils are also essential for efficiency.
If all these appear to be normal a gauge set is then required to check actual pressures.
I find the biggest issue with marine units is dirty or missing filters and dirty condensor coils.
Don't know yet what effect in price that will be on marine units but talk to your local service reps.
Freon that hasn't leaked out of a unit by law has to be recovered and sent to a recycler which they are stockpiling 22 for the complete phase out in 2020 at which point when the recycled stuff runs out, thats it.
In tens years a good portion of current R22 units will have been replaced anyways.
Generally speaking in commercial situations, a unit is good for about 10years. Dont get me wrong, they can and will last longer, but cost of repair and maintenance starts to add up, as efficiency drops.
And generally speaking, in all a/c systems lack of maintenance is the problem, mostly dirty coils, drains ,loose belts, no filters, dirty cond. coils are probably #1
Currently there are i think 2 replacement refrigerants that are "blends" of several refrigerants that will be used to replace r-22, but as far as i know, they are not compatible with the oil used in r22 compressors. It will have to be changed.
I don't know if r410 will be used with the marine stuff, R407 is one of the replacement r22 freons, all the manufactures will have to do is change oil in there units, and should work the same. Using r410 would require a complete reworking of equipment from coils to compressors. Like bruce said, r410 runs at very high pressure. A typical suction pressure on R22(the big line) is around 70 on a R410 units is 120. And also the oil is very incompatible, to the point where you really need 2 sets of gauges, one for 22 one for 410. the mixing of oil cause premature compressor failure. Its gonna suck, but i dont think much different than the phase out of R12 and 502. we now have 134, and 404. and various drop in replacements. Companies are calling us like crazy to buy our used refrigerant. Its going to be crazy, i think much of it, will just cause a panic, for no reason. You have to remember your marine units, only hold ounces, and of course right now, r410 is more expensive than 22.
I guess we will see how it goes. If they use r410, the price of equipment will increase alot. a typical 5ton r22 RTU is say...2200 my cost. the same unit with r410 is over 3k.
And generally speaking, in all a/c systems lack of maintenance is the problem, mostly dirty coils, drains ,loose belts, no filters, dirty cond. coils are probably #1
Currently there are i think 2 replacement refrigerants that are "blends" of several refrigerants that will be used to replace r-22, but as far as i know, they are not compatible with the oil used in r22 compressors. It will have to be changed.
I don't know if r410 will be used with the marine stuff, R407 is one of the replacement r22 freons, all the manufactures will have to do is change oil in there units, and should work the same. Using r410 would require a complete reworking of equipment from coils to compressors. Like bruce said, r410 runs at very high pressure. A typical suction pressure on R22(the big line) is around 70 on a R410 units is 120. And also the oil is very incompatible, to the point where you really need 2 sets of gauges, one for 22 one for 410. the mixing of oil cause premature compressor failure. Its gonna suck, but i dont think much different than the phase out of R12 and 502. we now have 134, and 404. and various drop in replacements. Companies are calling us like crazy to buy our used refrigerant. Its going to be crazy, i think much of it, will just cause a panic, for no reason. You have to remember your marine units, only hold ounces, and of course right now, r410 is more expensive than 22.
I guess we will see how it goes. If they use r410, the price of equipment will increase alot. a typical 5ton r22 RTU is say...2200 my cost. the same unit with r410 is over 3k.
Bruce and Coolair..
Thanks for the great info. It is great to have access to people you can trust when you ask a question about something you know zero about! Just another benefit of this site!
Thanks for the great info. It is great to have access to people you can trust when you ask a question about something you know zero about! Just another benefit of this site!
Frank B
1983 Bertram 33 FBC "Phoenix"
--------------
Trump lied! Washington DC isn't a swamp.. it is a cesspool!
1983 Bertram 33 FBC "Phoenix"
--------------
Trump lied! Washington DC isn't a swamp.. it is a cesspool!
If anyone tried to flush and switch R12 to R134a, it was a mess and 99.9% of the time didn't work right.
One issue of retrofitting is the same here, oil.
The freon circulates oil that the compressor uses as lubrication. For quick sake you basicaly have two, mineral and synthetic of with can't be mixed otherwise a gooey mess occures. There are also variables in each catagory that also have compatability problems.
Another oil issue is too much oil in the system that can clog cappilary tubes and lead to high head pressures. Trying to flush excess oil out of a retrofit is very labor intensive.
I learned real quick in the R12/134a fiasco that a complete and total system replacement was the best alternative cost wise in the long run and will be with the R22/R410.
I did not mention the R407 retro fit due to the R12/134a mess.
Any information anyone can provide to further any thread is welcome at all times.
One issue of retrofitting is the same here, oil.
The freon circulates oil that the compressor uses as lubrication. For quick sake you basicaly have two, mineral and synthetic of with can't be mixed otherwise a gooey mess occures. There are also variables in each catagory that also have compatability problems.
Another oil issue is too much oil in the system that can clog cappilary tubes and lead to high head pressures. Trying to flush excess oil out of a retrofit is very labor intensive.
I learned real quick in the R12/134a fiasco that a complete and total system replacement was the best alternative cost wise in the long run and will be with the R22/R410.
I did not mention the R407 retro fit due to the R12/134a mess.
Any information anyone can provide to further any thread is welcome at all times.
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Brewster Minton
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- Joined: Jun 30th, '06, 07:44
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Ya the 134/12 retrofits where a mess, i think i burned a couple compressors up in my truck before i got it right. but whether you like it or not, r22 to 410 retrofits are here to stay, luckly they have a handly little can of very expensive stuff call r11 flush. which is just R11 refrigerant. flushes all the oil and crap from a system , whether you are retrofitting or just cleaning out.
And in the commercial refrigeration side, we didnt have a choice, R12 was gone or a grand for a drum. hell i think r12 is down to 700 a drum now. We either replace a perfectly functioning system which would cost thousands or drop in a new refrigerant.
But i was mainly talking about the 407 on new units built. the manufactures can order a compressor with that oil already in it. Again, in these marine systems there are only ounces of oil and refrigerant. I suppose a split system could have alittle more. But changing the oil in the compressor would be a real pain in the butt. I dont konw, maybe 407 is really expensive i havent really messed with it so i dont know, they might not have a choice but to convert to r410. time will tell
Matt
And in the commercial refrigeration side, we didnt have a choice, R12 was gone or a grand for a drum. hell i think r12 is down to 700 a drum now. We either replace a perfectly functioning system which would cost thousands or drop in a new refrigerant.
But i was mainly talking about the 407 on new units built. the manufactures can order a compressor with that oil already in it. Again, in these marine systems there are only ounces of oil and refrigerant. I suppose a split system could have alittle more. But changing the oil in the compressor would be a real pain in the butt. I dont konw, maybe 407 is really expensive i havent really messed with it so i dont know, they might not have a choice but to convert to r410. time will tell
Matt
Thanks
Matt
Hull #315 - 854
Matt
Hull #315 - 854
Good input. My AC compressor in the Keys is nearly dead, so I asked my HVAC guy what to do. My air handler is only 3 yrs old, so his reccomendation was to replace the compressor with a 410 machine and convert the handler to the same. He said he's done many of them when the inside unit is fairly new-not worth a total change out. Works for me, I hope...
CMP
CMP
CMP
Thats what i would do, i forget the the date, but as long as a coil was build after i think like '03(dont quote me on that date) The only difference in the coils is the meetering device and the psi at which the coils where tested, if you look at the tag on the coil it should say tested to 300psi, that is a r22 only coil. i forget if the r410 is 600 or 900psi. We moslty do commercial, and roof top units, which ususaly just get replaced.
Just make sure he flushes the system with R11 or whatver he has down
Thats what i would do, i forget the the date, but as long as a coil was build after i think like '03(dont quote me on that date) The only difference in the coils is the meetering device and the psi at which the coils where tested, if you look at the tag on the coil it should say tested to 300psi, that is a r22 only coil. i forget if the r410 is 600 or 900psi. We moslty do commercial, and roof top units, which ususaly just get replaced.
Just make sure he flushes the system with R11 or whatver he has down
Thanks
Matt
Hull #315 - 854
Matt
Hull #315 - 854
Funny to see this discussion. I've been cleaning coils and making sure I have good airflow for a few days now since "defrosting" my home a/c unit. The coils in the airhandler were almost one big ice cube. I think the new filter helped a lot. It wasn't due for one...not sure why it clogged so quick. I assumed air movement over the coils would cause this as an easy DIY fix.
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