Rudder tie bar

pschauss · Post by **pschauss** » Nov 29th, '20, 18:21

Getting ready to replace my rudder tie bar. This is what the ends look like. How do they come apart?

pschauss · Post by **pschauss** » Nov 29th, '20, 18:31

Trying to post the picture again:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/75758245@ ... ed-public/

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Nov 29th, '20, 22:14

Peter

Let me see if I remember this correctly. Once you remove the steering block that is clamped onto the end of the rod, the rod should lift up and then you can unscrew the end off. Or if you get lucky like I did, to just crumbles in your hand. Talk about timing.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Nov 30th, '20, 08:38

Remove the Cotter pin, unscrew the plug some then lift the bar end off the ball fitting.
Unscrew end from tie rod.

FYI- some of the tie rod ends are a combination of LH and RH threads...so look at the threads before cranking on them.

pschauss · Post by **pschauss** » Nov 30th, '20, 14:05

I managed to get the plug out of one end using an assortment of improvised tools before the rain drove me off this morning. Is there a tool specifically designed to unscrew these plugs?

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 1st, '20, 06:42

Screwdriver...a big one.

Piece of flat steel stock cut to fit, use and adjustable wrench to turn.
A chisel with front edge ground flat, preferably a chisel with a hex body so you can get a wrench on it
Sometimes you can find socket with a screwdriver bit...or weld a piece of flat stock onto a socket.
In short...whatever you have that you can get to work.

When new or cleaned up and lubricated anything works well, but after years sitting in a bilge...even with the best tools it can be a job.

Sometimes re-adjust strategy- if you cannot get the fitting off easily...put a wrench on the ball stud, it may unscrew easily. If not, can the tiller arm be removed? Usually just a clamp bolt and set screw then tap the tiller off rudder shaft. If so the tie rod bar, ends and tiller can be removed from boat to work on. Its an easier job on the bench then under the deck.

Bruce · Post by **Bruce** » Dec 1st, '20, 11:57

Drag link socket on a ratchet will work.

pschauss · Post by **pschauss** » Dec 1st, '20, 14:14

Tony, Carl, Bruce,

Thanks for the advice. I was able to get the port end off by setting a screw driver in the slot from the side and hitting it with a hammer. Surprisingly, the starboard end was loose enough that I could unscrew it with a regular screw driver. Now I have to find a way to split the bar into pieces so that I can get it out through the hatches.

The threaded bar on mine was originally cut into two pieces and joined by a stainless tube. Since the bar itself is mild steel and seriously rusted, I am not certain that I will be able to separate one piece from the tube. I am hoping that removing the end pieces will make the whole thing short enough to get out through the hatches. I am hoping that I don't have to cut the bar.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 1st, '20, 14:56

I'm not sure what deck you have...but if a standard deck they come up relatively easy, well sorta easy. Its work as the side panels come out, screws holding deck come out, then up they come leaving the whole back area open to work. If only reworking the ends I guess it doesn't pay. But if your thinking about doing the shelf, dropping the rudder its a whole lots easier to remove deck then trying to work through the hatch cutouts.

If you have to cut...its not the end of the world. Buy threaded pipe with couplings or have plumbing house cut and thread to size. SS is available as well as black pipe. Or call on a bud with a machine shop or lathe in their basement.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Dec 1st, '20, 22:12

Peter

What Carl said. I would try to use Stainless if you can. One less thing to rot away on you. I had my deck out when I did mine so I can not help you there.

Maybe Carl knows a good Machine shop that can help you in getting one made.

Charlie J · Post by **Charlie J** » Dec 2nd, '20, 09:44

when i replaced mine i was able to get it out in 1 piece FYI

pschauss · Post by **pschauss** » Dec 2nd, '20, 20:15

After taking both end fittings off of my tie bar I was able to get it out through one of the hatches.

As near as I can tell from the stack of receipts which came with my boat, my cockpit deck was fabricated in place. Hatch locations and sizes appear to have been copied from the original.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Dec 2nd, '20, 21:03

Peter,

The deck is then one piece and does not screw down. Hope you do not have to ever cut it out.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 3rd, '20, 09:51

Tony Meola wrote: ↑Dec 2nd, '20, 21:03 Peter,

The deck is then one piece and does not screw down. Hope you do not have to ever cut it out.

Cutting it out would be the easy part...its putting it back that becomes the trick.

coolair · Post by **coolair** » Dec 3rd, '20, 10:32

Something I came across when I did mine is the new swivel sockets are NPSM not NPT. My understanding is the difference is that NPT tapers up at the end. But I am not sure, Carl would be the one to ask about that.
After hunting for someone that had those dies I finally gave up and just used NPT dies and threaded more of the pipe than I needed to keep the threads straight, I actually talked the guy into Home depot into threading it for me, he didn't seem to care that the stainless was not good for their machine..

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 3rd, '20, 12:51

NPT National Pipe Taper Meant to attach and seal with a mating NPT fitting and a sealing compound such as Pipe Dope or Teflon tape.

NPS National Pipe Straight It is used on pipe as a mechanical joint only, not for sealing. Also called NPSM for National Pipe Straight Mechanical

NPS is often seen in the lighting industry for lamps and hanging fixtures with wires going through the center of the pipe. And as said by Coolair what is used on the steering tie rod ends. Makes sense as it is often pipe that is used, as it's lighter then solid bar. Machining to a standard UN thread would mean machining the pipe diameter to a standard size, then thread. Pipe threads use the wanky pipe diameter standards....which in my head make no sense...just like a 2 x 4 piece of lumber does not measure 2" by 4". Yeah yeah I know, it did measure that somewhere along the way...but it does not now, so why call it a 2 by 4? call it a 1-1/2 x 3-1/2.
Pipes...a 1" pipe measures 1" on the inside...But every other rod or tube we designate the size by measuring the outside. AND to boot, a 1" pipe does not measure 1" on the inside, its about a 1/16" over, unless its schedule 80, then its a 1/16" under....but the OD stays the same at 1-5/16. Glad I do not deal with that stuff often.

NPTF National Pipe Taper Fuel (AKA-dryseal)...very similar to NPT in looks but more stringent tolerances and slightly different thread form. When two NPTF fittings mate they will seal without the use of a sealing compound.

Now you know more then you wanted to know about pipe fittings. lunch is over and back to work I go.

pschauss · Post by **pschauss** » Dec 3rd, '20, 13:26

Tony Meola wrote: ↑Dec 2nd, '20, 21:03 Peter,

The deck is then one piece and does not screw down. Hope you do not have to ever cut it out.

I have a receipt showing that it was done 11 years ago (fiberglass matting, polyester resin, and gelcoat over 3/4" marine plywood). I have not had any problems with it so far. When the time comes I’ll be back for advice.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Dec 3rd, '20, 21:58

Peter

Not the deck I am thinking about. It is what is under the deck. Shaft logs, rudder ports, fuel tank etc. If you ever need to do serious work on them, you then need to neatly cut it out and then figure out how to put it back so you don't ever need to cut it out again.

pschauss · Post by **pschauss** » Dec 4th, '20, 07:27

I have hatches which give me sufficient access to the rudder ports, aft bilge pump, shaft logs, and fuel pickup tubes and gauge sender. Last winter, when I upgraded my rudders and replaced my stuffing boxes and their hoses I had no problems with access. If I need to replace the fuel tank (I only have the midship tank) it's going to be major surgery. At that point I will be looking at the tradeoff between cutting a new hatch to give me access to the tank or buying and installing a prefabricated deck and making the necessary repairs to the deck support structure.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Dec 4th, '20, 08:32

Peter,

...or get yourself a B28 where all these problems simply don't exist! Lol!

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 4th, '20, 14:03

Yannis wrote: ↑Dec 4th, '20, 08:32 Peter,

...or get yourself a B28 where all these problems simply don't exist! Lol!

True...but then your stuck with a b28

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Dec 4th, '20, 21:37

Carl wrote: ↑Dec 4th, '20, 14:03 True...but then your stuck with a b28

Now that is funny

Yannis

No offense.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Dec 5th, '20, 00:51

Haha, I’m glad there is this 6-7 hours difference so we can let comments sink in ....
Clearly evident this lurking jealousy for Bertram’s all time best seller...but what can I do!

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 5th, '20, 20:40

Of course they sold well...everyone wanted a B31, but couldn't get one. So they settled on the 28

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Dec 6th, '20, 07:15

Or, maybe, those who bought a 31 just couldn't do otherwise. Unfortunately, the 28 appeared a bit too late for them...

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 6th, '20, 14:02

Yannis wrote: ↑Dec 6th, '20, 07:15 Unfortunately, the 28 appeared...

When your right, your right.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Dec 6th, '20, 21:14

Oh if only Uncle Vic was still with us.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Dec 7th, '20, 07:20

Seems like you pressed the “submit” button a bit too soon, without the remainder of my phrase...
Probably influenced by any boater’s natural rush to submit before even a mere mention about a 28. I don't blame you!

ktm_2000 · Post by **ktm_2000** » Dec 7th, '20, 13:51

a$$ dragging hyena
RLDT - rolling little death trap

some terms I seem to remember from Uncle Vic about the B28, I'm not sure if they were both about the B28 or others, thankfully I don't remembering him having too much bad to say about the B25 other than his experience with volvos.

ktm_2000 · Post by **ktm_2000** » Dec 7th, '20, 13:52

I do remember one term about the B25s being powered by oil slinging fork truck motors

capy · Post by **capy** » Dec 7th, '20, 14:41

B28 "looks like a hyena dragging its ass across the ground" shortened to "ASS Dragging hyena boats" Uncle vic
B31 "rolling little death traps" Shortened to " RLDT " Thud, aka Timmy K
B31 with 6v53's, my boat, was the "oil slinging dump truck motors" was coined by the troubador who sang "redneck romance" at UVII 3.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 7th, '20, 19:56

Tony Meola wrote: ↑Dec 6th, '20, 21:14 Oh if only Uncle Vic was still with us.

Tony- if your remembered, your never gone.

Sometimes the fingers go and I just watch...as if inspired

Yannis-

The 31 is such a great boat, Bertram was able to sell the 28' on its coat tails for years...

I'd also like to mention we are conversing on a 31 Bertram site...the best Bertram site ever, just like the boat.

Yo Fren,

Carl

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Dec 8th, '20, 07:03

Come on guys stop the teasing. Every super model has a chubby younger sister who bakes a mean meatloaf. And some guys prefer the meatloaf over a good bedtime story.

Carl · Post by **Carl** » Dec 8th, '20, 07:09

Peter- you owe me a new keyboard.

John Swick · Post by **John Swick** » Dec 8th, '20, 07:17

``Every super model has a chubby younger sister who bakes a mean meatloaf. And some guys prefer the meatloaf over a good bedtime story.``
LMAO
Good one Peter, I`m going to have to try and remember that one.
John

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Dec 8th, '20, 07:35

Nice memories about old sayings and funny comments indeed.

Pity that all these humorous remarks cannot steal anything from the supremacy of the 28...
Perhaps a jealousy vaccine could put things straight, but they're kept busy with covid nowadays!

PeterPalmieri · Post by **PeterPalmieri** » Dec 8th, '20, 07:40

You know what you call a super model that bakes a mean meatloaf? No it’s not a unicorns it’s a 42’ Merritt. We all want to run one but can’t afford the maintenance.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Dec 8th, '20, 21:45

PeterPalmieri wrote: ↑Dec 8th, '20, 07:03 Come on guys stop the teasing. Every super model has a chubby younger sister who bakes a mean meatloaf. And some guys prefer the meatloaf over a good bedtime story.

Peter

Reminds me of a guy I used to work with back in the mid 80's. He was in his 40's and getting ready to dive into his second marriage. Somewhere along the line he gets into a discussion with his future wife, he tells her "Lets get one thing clear, if it comes down to sex or a meatball sandwich, I am going for the meatball sandwich."

True story.

Rawleigh · Post by **Rawleigh** » Dec 10th, '20, 10:48

How did that work out for him???

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Dec 10th, '20, 21:35

Rawleigh wrote: ↑Dec 10th, '20, 10:48 How did that work out for him???

Unfortunately I changed jobs and lost touch with him. I can tell you he was still married after about 8 years.

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Dec 11th, '20, 01:24

She must have become an expert in preparing meatball sandwiches...served the right time.

Tony Meola · Post by **Tony Meola** » Dec 11th, '20, 21:39

Yannis wrote: ↑Dec 11th, '20, 01:24 She must have become an expert in preparing meatball sandwiches...served the right time.

For a man that is not married, it seems that you understand wives. LOL

Yannis · Post by **Yannis** » Dec 11th, '20, 23:39

Yeah, I also know the other one, with the head aches! Lol!